Do westerners tend to confuse recognition with achievement?

And is this not the root cause of many problems in the way martial arts are taught?





I got the idea for this question reading about how legitimate schools sometimes find it hard to compete with black belt factories. People seem to think a better school will get them to black belt faster. But in and of itself, black belts don%26#039;t mean anything, other than you%26#039;re supposed to wear them with black shoes. But if we understood what progress and achievement was, this wouldn%26#039;t be a problem. People wouldn%26#039;t even be interested in a black belt if it came from a school that was not thorough in its teaching. In fact, such learning would seem pointless to them, as they would not be interested in obtaining belts, as much as they would be interested in learning.





My sensei once told me a storty about a man he met in Japan. He practiced Tai-Chi (The martial arts, not just the choreography, as it is still often practiced in China). He would come in to train every day and for seven years...

Do westerners tend to confuse recognition with achievement?
Totally.





Most Westerners have turned Martial arts into a rank ego system. The BUDO is lost to most Westerners and hence they are losing one of the true good qualities of the martial arts. As any good traditionalist knows the BUDO is even more important if Martial Arts esp for those of us that not just train but LIVE eat and BREATHE MA.





I like your story and its true!
Reply:I have heard maybe 10 variations on that story some involved repeating movements that were not at 1st glance martial wax on wax off is a modern variation.





Your question is correct .They forget belt rank does not define skill knowledge or experience.
Reply:Not as much as easterners, there is no reason to respect anyone who hasn%26#039;t earned it, many easterners recognize people who have achieved nothing. and they way westerners do it now is because they believe they should emulate easterners who have achieved nothing/ done nothing deserving of respect, and so if sensei tells them to respect the belt they do, ignoring the fact that the have no actual reason to listen to sensei, because he has never PROVEN anything, and is quite possible telling them a load of bull. if Kano knew what would have become of the belt system he never would have started it.


And the reason black belt factories beat legitimate schools is because people don%26#039;t like to work hard or for a long time or get hit. Black belt factories give %26#039;instant gratification%26#039; or at least the closest thing to it, and thats what everyone is looking for, nevermind that most blackbelts aren%26#039;t worth the fabric they%26#039;re made out of today.


the way to fix this is actually quite simple, have competitions, challenge the factories, once people see they can%26#039;t actually fight most people won%26#039;t want to be associtated with them(if you can get them to accept the challenge). If you can prove what you teach is effective you will do better, if you can prove what they teach isn%26#039;t effective thats even better, they may claim %26#039;martial arts isn%26#039;t about fighting%26#039;(which it is seriously think about it, you%26#039;re learning to punch kick etc and you%26#039;re not learning to fight? and what the hell do you think martial means) but many people(most intelligent people) will see through that. Think about it which arts that have belts don%26#039;t have trouble with belt factories, BJJ and Judo, why because they compete and have established records, don%26#039;t claim to be something they%26#039;re not or claim anything they can%26#039;t prove, they go up against each other so everyone can see who%26#039;s worth listening to and who isn%26#039;t, whose stuff works and whose doesn%26#039;t.


Oh and STOP PUTTING EASTERNERS/ASIANS ON SOME GODLIKE PEDASTAL they are no better than anybody else,(except maybe in making everyone think they%26#039;re fighting gods) not in martial arts, or anything, they didn%26#039;t create them, they%26#039;ve been around as long as mankind, and the first established system was in GREECE NOT CHINA, and the eastern arts haven%26#039;t provent to be particularly effective, nor have their fighters been any better than others and in many cases they%26#039;re worse. historically westerners when something better came along took it and adapted it(recognize something which acheived something), easterners because they%26#039;re so steeped in tradition frequently refuse to accept something better may exist and so hold to what they%26#039;ve been doing and stagnate and become outdated(recognize something which has achieved nothing). when did asian culture leave the dark ages/feudal era? when they adopted WESTERN WORLD VIEWS AND VALUES. wake up people.
Reply:I think it is a good question in that it brings to the surface how different cultures look at things differently. Many schools and instructors have been influenced by the culture of the country where their art came from and I think you can make numerous arguments for the good and bad of that. When you take those influences, values, and aspects and impose them on a person in this country you may meet with bewilderment, or some strong objection and indifference especially with the current generation.





Look at training for instance; forty years ago classes where hard core, no children, physical pain and discomfort was thought of as nothing, and sometimes modest corporal punishment was employed. If you were to run a class like that today you would have very few students or be sued.





Literally-actual competition is another aspect. While there is or was some kind and type of competition in your countries of origin it is/was not so heavily pursued or emphasized like it is today in this country. I was just telling my students last night that the important thing is not how many trophies I have in my window and that is not what they pay me for. They pay me to teach them to the best of my ability to defend themselves out there in the parking lot or be recognized for their knowledge, skill, and ability anywhere they may choose to go. I also have to add all those trophies help get me some students but really the bottom line is what I can teach them and how good I can make them-that is what counts.





Language and customs are another aspect-I use very little Japanese and teach them some customs and protocols; just enough so that if my students encounter a hard core, traditional black belt in Japanese/Okinanwan martial arts they are not totally lost in some of the more common aspects and courtesies of this.





Consider baseball in Japan. Do you think that all of sudden they stop talking Japanese and start talking English when they teach, coach, or play the great American passtime. Heck no! I have seen some good instructors and schools close in the past forty years that could not change the way they taught, did business, or trained their students. I have seen others that have been able to adapt and at the same time still maintain a high standard, produce a good student and maintain the essence of their art. I actually think that some of the problems with the way martial arts is taught is not just due to competition within the martial arts community for students but also is a generational and cultural thing. There are still enough adults, teens, and parents with children out there that want to go to a good school that won%26#039;t just hand them a black-belt after two years. I think the trick is to capture that segment of the market if you are that type of instructor with high standards and who at the same time has adapted to some extent the way he/she does business, teaches, and promotes students but still produces a high quality student in spite of all this. This is of course, all my own opinon, but I do think your question raises some things besides just competition for students and business that I hope some will consider and/or find stimulating and helpful.
Reply:While belt factories are indeed a hinderance to the quality of Martial Arts, or a Martial Art in general.





I think that there is a great deal of confusion in people%26#039;s placement of the blame.





This is not a %26quot;Westerner%26quot; problem in the slightest. MANY MANY organizations in Asian countries (including founding Organizations) award honorary ranks, and awards. In fact there is no place free from politics, if you look at any Martial Arts organization you would see that. In fact you find many Asian organizations standards much more laxed then some %26quot;Western%26quot; organizations.





Organizations are big part of the problem. However there has to be some sort of standard due, unfortunately with many things what has started out to be a great ideology, turns corrupt with people looking for money, and power. This is not a Western Only Problem. I see this with many Eastern Organizations, and especially with International Martial Arts Federations, which have a pay for a Hall of Fame type of thing going. Give them the right amount of money and you are suddenly a member of their Hall of Fame.





Yes, Martial Arts like many other things have fallen into the hands of people looking for a profit, people seeking honorary titles, and acheivements to boost their Martial Arts resumes.





Forget buddhist philosophies, stories of Bushido, or Zen. Most of these things are not just lost here, but in their prospective countries of origin. Many of the %26quot;Mountain dojos by Waterfalls%26quot; imparting Zen philosophies, and the like are myth, and the few out there that do exist do so at a high profit margin for tourism. The truth is if Martial Arts were truly near what they used to be, many many schools would be turning would be students away, for not having the mentality, maturity, and character to be a Martial Artist.





Of course there is elitism to the highest degree amongst Martial Artist. People comparing lineage, schools, styles, and methods of instruction. Thinking that a harder an instructor is, or if he tries to impart meditation, or zen riddles that he is in fact closer to the real deal.





This couldn%26#039;t be further from the case. The real deal is that truthfully, Martial Arts evolve like everything else. While those maintaining some sense of tradition are certainly admired, the truth is they grasp onto ONE portion of the tradition, or hold on to just a few of it%26#039;s ideals and throw out the old ones.





Also, the truth is you simply cannot do what used to be done. Obviously whacking children with bamboo sticks, and training for 40 hours a week or more is not a possibility. Keep in mind, that many olden dojos were also schools, they were what children or adults did as an occupation. You weren%26#039;t just a student, but an apprentice.





Did that make someone any better or worst of a Martial Artist? Obviously I would say there are Martial Artist now who could easily outperform students of those days, simply because training methodologies have been refined, and evolved. But as a whole, there were fewer Martial Artist.





Now, Martial Arts are available to anyone. While some schools are selective in the fact they may ask bad seeds to leave, by far in general they do not turn students away. There are bills to pay.





This occurs EVERYWHERE. There are few dojos in the entire world that will turn anyone with money away. Mind you there are plenty of them that will also take people in with little to no money. But no one is very exlusive. Those that are, do so purposefully for commercial reasons.





This is not a Western only phenemenom. Japan, Phillipines, Korea, Thailand, (I can%26#039;t speak for China other then to say that it is well known that the Shaolin temple is supported by the Government for tourism reasons, and that very few if any current Shaolin monks have ties to the actual true Shaolin order, and that even then, there has been no historic evidence of great fighting ability of those monks) all these countries have countless dojos handing out black belts, and in it for the money just as much as any western Mcdojo. I have met white men wearing black belts from the Kodokan that a brown belt from my club could toss around with ease.





It is true, repuations of styles, and styles themselves are getting watered down to the open door, money making schemes of people who wish to capitalize on Martial Arts. However this has occurred nearly since the beginning, and is not a merely Western thing. There is widespread outright Fraud tied to MANY proclaimed Martial Arts masters, many of whom have outright fabricated lineages, secret scrolls, and masters who have never existed. These people have tied to Internation Martial Arts federations that they are %26quot;Hall of Fame%26quot; members of, and hold honorary ranks in %26quot;pay for grade%26quot; Internation Martial Arts organizations.





As Martial Arts have evolved, so have the methods of frauds attempting to make a name of Martial Arts have. Even newer arts, the latest fads people attempt to make a name off of. Schools with %26quot;Mixed Martial Arts%26quot; where so and so is a %26quot;Undefeated Professional fighter in No Holds Barred competetions%26quot; without a single record existing anywhere of this person competing anywhere.





But the thing is, suckers buy into this.





This things continue to happen because no matter where, there are people who want to be Martial Artist, who are gullible, and desperately want to think they are learning something special.





Especially people claiming to be very exclusive, very secretive, and knowing fighting methods and techniques which are too deadly for anyone to teach, yet they do. People everywhere eat that up. There are the same sorts with dozens of students throughout the world.





Sadly, there are people teaching these methods and have every reason to believe in them, because they were taught the very same thing. We have students of frauds going around and spreading fraudelent Martial Arts.





Followers of guys like Ashida Kim, George Dillman, and Frank Dux.





Guys who wholeheartedly believe in what they are showing and doing. Guys who are not intentionly decieving anyone because they bought into the BS.





This is not a Western only thing. This is widespread, and it goes to the very heart of human nature and people%26#039;s needs to feel safer, or better, then the next guy.





That is not to say that Budo is lost, or that true Martial Arts are not flourishing. It is just saying that there are places east and west deceiving people, or promoting people for their own profit. This is not always something that someone is doing with malice. Many of these people have bought into a system of teaching, believe in it heavily, and continue going in the same vein, and making profit from it.





I promise you if you got to 80% of the Belt Factory McDojo systems out there, you will find instructors who whole heartedly believe what they are doing is right, and that the people they are awarding belts to are deserving of them, and that the techniques they show are solid, complete, and effective.





The same as many people even here who have never sparred a day in their life, think that they can utilize their technique with full ferocity, accuracy, and effectiveness when the time comes. Not realizing their training neglects timing, accuracy, natural body reactions, reflexes and human instinct.





Only way you get better at Golf is to play Golf, only way you can hammer a nail better is to hammer a lot of nails, only way you can shoot better is to go out and shoot, and the only way you can fight better is to fight.





I find that is lacking in modern Martial Art programs much more than Budo, Zen, or self perfection. The actual application of the technique against a fully resisting opponent. I promise you will find more schools that concentrate on forms, some basic exercises, and conditioning, that impart Zen riddles, talk of honor, and respect, and discipline, but do not spar, do not fight, and do not compete, then you will find schools that hand out belts. and honestly you find that way more in the West than in the East.





You would be very surprised how much spirituality, Zen, and self perfection has been taken out of martial arts schools in the East, particularly because most of the countries are more secular now, then even the west is.





Mind you the time I spent was limited, but I have been to schools in Japan, Korea, and Thailand, and I have rarely ever heard mention of Chi, Ki, or done any meditation, heard any Zen riddles, or been imparted with any Buddhist or Shinto philosophy. They were pretty much about the art, the technique, and fighting it hard and intense. (Aside from Thailand, a great deal of spirituality is part Muay Thai over there).





I think that the the Westerners (particular those who have a sense of elitism tied with martial arts) are some of the primary banner carriers of this culture. As Martial Arts ties to spirituality, self perfection, Zen, Shintoism, and Buddhism are often removed in the East and the Countries of Origin for many of these arts. Yet some of their traditions and thoughts are very much alive in the West.





So in short (I know I have wrote a book) I think that the problems you attribute to Westerners, lie everywhere, including the East and the majority of the countries of origin for a particular Martial Art. However I find that what you think of as %26quot;correct%26quot; or the %26quot;right%26quot; way of Martial Arts (Zen traditions, buddhist and Shintoist philosophy, humility, Culture and History of an Art) are found more in the West then you find now a days in the East.





Just my opinion from my travels, and what I have seen. I could be right or wrong. Personally I think that like all things eventually things come out in the wash. People who watch MMA and other unnarmed contests see that many of the %26quot;Old Ways%26quot; aren%26#039;t what they were cracked up to be. When it all comes down to it, it also depends on what you deem as successful in Martial Arts is. Is it a peaceful person who is self actualized, confident and happy, but would not necessarily do well in a fight. Or is a person who can handily defeat most would be challengers.





Honestly I think that diachotomy has been in Martial Arts from the beginning. There were great fighters, and there were people who were more peaceful, spiritual, and centered, yet were not great fighters.





Hell that Diachotomy exists on all planes, a great warrior, or a great clergyman. A great general or a great politician.





Ultimately who is more successful? It depends on your guidelines for success and what you get out of it.





Just my tidbit of long winded notes for today...
Reply:Rank has its place and meaning. Having black belt factorys really lowers the standard of their own schools basicaly and gives alot of false confidence which makes people lazy, or sometimes even completely uninterested





it%26#039;s like if you go to the army in a strange country and after a few months of training that you still might find hard (because you are not exposed to anything else) you get a rank of commander, back in your own country you know that commander means you are the ****, so as far as your concerned, you are the **** and can stop training





The real problem I think is that most places have unrealistic ways of testing themselves or none at all, you wouldnt hold army games in the mall would you, you would hold them in the forest, as close to the real thing as possible





If places had more competitions it would end allot of the problems. i know that people say, this and this is not what it%26#039;s like in real life, and i say YES, there is a chance that a person can be very good in competition but will loose in a fight, but there is a FAR greater chance of a guy who is hopeless at ruled fighting loosing a fight than a guy who is great at it





As for the story, I like it, unfortunately there is not ONE magical move out there, well maybe, but it would get pretty boring after a while rite? you have to be a Budhist Monk to train single techniques daily for years and years at a time, or at least have their attitude about it
Reply:I agree.
Reply:Total ignoramus about martial arts here -- but yes, we confuse recognition (in both senses -- awards, and being %26quot;known%26quot;) with achievement -- to such an extent that many people think someone who%26#039;s well-known is also someone it%26#039;s good to know. Or that what we do is of no value if no one praises us, pays us, or gives us a prize.





Ideally, we would convert everything into money, so we%26#039;d have a simple scale, and could say, %26quot;Yes! A Michelangelo is worth more than a mother.%26quot; Stupid, but comfortable.
Reply:To an extent, I agree. The issue, however, lies with the teacher, not necessarily the student. If the teacher places emphasis on belts and not learning, so will the students. If the teacher puts the belts in proper perspective (that they are tools to see progress in the art, and tools for the instructor to see what part of the curriculum a student is learning), then the student learns to view them the same way.





The result of a belt test should feel like and accomplishment, not a reward. And that lies on the instructor.
Reply:Not every one who trains has the same goals or motives.I would rather loose a student than just give him a belt. As a business this seems counter productive. It isn%26#039;t sooner or later the school will suffer from too many unmotivated students.Yes we have a problem with the drift in cultural values. Yes we are enamored with awards a bit too much. We struggle with trying to motivate students when there are so many distractions now in this fast paced culture.


I guess we may never be a big school. I believe we will be a successful school.



Puppy Teeth